Face Off: Leading Without Changing

- Hello.

you.You too. It's nice to be...- in Madrid.

It's a pleasure to have a conversation with you about leadership, and how to be a woman in companies.

We will see what we agree on, and what we don't.Earlier, when we were talking backstage,the truth is that I found your professional career very interesting,which has also been international.

So...Well, it is because it gives you like...perspectives.

Yes, it's different.In the end,I come from Russia, and I've been abroad for quite some time,but I also lived most of my life inside.

All education, family, social concepts...I took them from there.

And there are really like two separate issues.One theme is leadership. Another topic is feminism.

So, obviously, the Soviet style, my grandparents were communists.- There was no...

I would not classify the topic of feminism as taboo,but it simply did not exist, because I didn't know how to value the role of a woman or a female leader.

But on the other hand, my mother is also a space engineer,and she obviously worked all her life in a male dominant...

...environment, and also led at home.So it's like, on the one hand, I haven't had any specific education in feminism or, in general, on the role of women in society,and it was quite divided what a woman had to do,which is raising children, cooking and so on.

The tradition rooted in the past, versus my mother, who led or was in charge of our home, and also outside.

So I have grown up in this dichotomy of concepts.It's been quite a while since I left the country, and I started working in international companies,seeing different types of behaviors of people in different...

countries.Do you think there was something in those moments in which you said:"Well, my mother does that"? If I may ask.

I don't think I've ever thought that because my mother does it,I'm going to copy her behavior, because at the moment of truth,I've never known what she does or how, since I've never been able to see it.

It's not like you could visit her work.It was a fairly high level of secrecy.

Therefore, they are peculiar things.I have not seen her in action in the work environment,But I have seen her at home.

That could also have...It has helped me develop a specific character, more like a...

combative person.I wanted to ask you, because it has happened to me too,that not necessarily my references, apart from my mother, at work,have been women.

And there are behaviors that I've learned, or that I have given myself permission to have, because I felt they were my own, but what did the men do?

And that, if this person behaves like this, they give their opinion,they're an assertive person, sometimes they don't necessarily agree...

with everyone, and they put themselves in other situation, and that person...

is penalized, or even valued.Well, I also accept that behavior for myself.

I don't know if this has ever happened to you.Yes, in general I did not have references in women's leadership when I started my career. I was in a company led by men and I think there was only one woman, who was Head of CX.

But quickly when I entered, she went on maternity leave,and she had her story too.

I watched her from afar, because didn't really connect… back then.

But the leaves usually last quite a long time.In Russia, for example, maternity leaves last two years.

She came back I think in six months. And for me...

For me, not knowing other environments,it was shocking.

Shocking because she was really afraid and frightened of not being able to...

stay in the leadership position.The rest were men.

And speaking of behavior, if you don't have female references in the end you see a person, one person leads one way and you say...

"Okay." I have thought: "Why can't I lead...in the same way?" One of the debates that always exists regarding this topic is if then...

those women, or us, we are assuming or copying theoretically masculine behaviors.

Do you think those exist?Because I don't.In fact, when I adopt these behaviors it's because I think they connect with how I want to do things, and what I do is give myself permission.

But sometimes...What do you think of this dichotomy in which it seems like female leadership has to be done in a certain way, different than the masculine leadership?

It's like the chicken and the egg.You don't know what comes first. Or it's really a woman that tends to have the same behavior, and it is natural,or it's because she adopts this behavior because she copies it from a man.

For example, a good example would be Margaret Thatcher.

Why do we know her as "The Iron Lady"?And why is she "The Iron Lady"?

Because she adopted some behavior or because she was already like that?

Maybe she already had something, an empowering style that allowed her to stand out.

Before, in fact,we also said what was happening to you, maybe not so much now, but before,that when they saw you, you said: "Sure." Besides, they see me blonde and such.

Also, the surprise, I mean, because it can be attributed to you deep down, the stereotype of whoever sees you:"It should be..." or thinks you should be...

in a way...They're always surprised.At first, when I was younger, I guess people had something,a preconceived image of me, which people who didn't know me saw,and then when I started talking it was: "Oops, what's going on here...

that unsettles me?" But yes, I was always told that I am very petite,very feminine, very blonde too, which is unsettling in certain ways,so it was difficult for me to be taken more seriously.

We mentioned before about issues of feminism, equality and so on.

If you had to count on your experience, at what moment...

you're becoming more aware, more or less, at what time...

...of your career, so far, could it be?I believe that there were signs from the first moment,When two years into my career, they put me as team leader, and that's when I already faced the men's table.

These were signs, but I've never thought about the role of women,because I didn't know how to distinguish if it was because of gender or also because of height, or my appearance.

I believe that I'm aware of the situation in Spain. I already worked at Factorial,and when we started, in fact, thinking about it now,the table was not a table as such, but in the meetings,we were many women. I had a coworker...

from a Northern European market,and another from Southern Europe, which is now the CRO from Factorial, and also,at that time I was Head of Marketing.

So we were always all at the table, and it was a female table.

It was a table where you didn't have to think that there was...

bias.I also came to feminism through a vital slap,to put it one way, because, indeed, when I started working, I was one of those people who, even though I saw that things happened to other women, especially once motherhood arrives,and then, when I had my first daughter, and indeed,

I no longer had... I couldn't give 24 hours of my life to the company, and didn't want to either, because I wanted to be a mother,also to have time for my daughter...

Suddenly there is a brutal job change, which you're not...

aware of, until it happens to you.There is an interesting part that I think is understanding,and it is where you also begin to discover that what happens to you.

Not only does it happen to you, but it also happens to many others.

Many times, it happens before entering into these processes of guilt or self-responsibility, you understand that...

there are structural dynamics that make, actually,what happens to you, happen much more.

After that epiphany, I got quite involved...consciously and constantly in feminist movements which wanted to transform the industry.

That also opened the door for me to do a lot of networking in the industry within women's groups.

I believe that these conversations that we have,they help women feel less alone in their difficulties.

Thinking how you may feel in a moment,with all those doubts and fears, because if not, sometimes you see the position,and it seems that it is just that, a position, and it is not seen the trajectory, the difficulties or the paths one goes through too.

I think it also helps you feel...Well, that there are other women who may have gone through similar paths,and that, well, yes it is true that it's a little frightening the word "inspiration", but as we said, sometimes...

being there, it can already be a little inspiring.

What you were saying about coherence, knowing how to read the context,of being aware of when you are part of the context, when you assume the context,personal responsibility, and how to act from this personal responsibility,and know what is in your hands and what you can influence,it has helped me a lot.

If it can be an external reference, if it can be as a mentor who is in a similar position, or in my case, I consume a lot of digital content where,for example, women in the same position are progressing in their careers, then I'm trying to search for these references, and coaching has been quite a revelation...

Big enough in the last year,to also find this confidence, to find the strength and support myself and then give support to others.

Well, that's good. I believe that whatever makes you learn and think of yourself,and so on, I think that's where, in the end...

Because that's where you root.Exactly.And from there, it's easier not to get lost in those meetings.

Well, Alejandra, I really wasn't expecting today, at all,this type of conversation.

I thought it was going to be different, generic, and it has been quite personal.

I thank you because it has also been a quite comfortable environment for me,to speak, and I have learned a lot. It has inspired me too.

I've seen an example of leadership, I've seen an example to follow,an example of a person who has been through a lot, who has a lot...

knowledge, and who has the generosity to share this knowledge with everyone.

Thank you very much for this meeting, and I am very grateful to have met you.

Thank you very much too.Thank you very much for sharing your life, your experience.

I think it is a great act of generosity, because it means opening up,and look for each other in those places that are sometimes also more intimate.

Really, thank you so much.For me, this talk, and this talk with you,is like a huge exercise in empathy,because, in the end, finding someone with very different lives and very different approaches,and realizing that, deep down, we have a lot in common, feels amazing.

So, I really appreciate the conversation.We will keep in touch, and of course, we are both part of a mutual network.

It has been a pleasure talking with you.Thank you so much.

Lots of love.